The Beautiful Kind
Kinky Stories & Relationship / Sex Advice
Ask the Slut: Can Creepy Men Be Cured?
Dear Slut,
I don't know about you, but I know a lot of creepy men. What makes a man creepy? Can creepy men be cured? Or, once a creep, always a creep? Have you ever met a creepy woman?
Dear Dinah,
All right, readers, I want feedback from YOU - tell me about an encounter you had with a creepy guy. What made it creepy? What are the qualities of a creep? Can creeps be cured?
Here is what I have to say on the subject - I'm hoping reader input will help shape my understanding of this unfortunate issue.
Being in the sex industry, I've met A LOT of creeps. Here is an example: A man contacted me through this blog. He wrote me a couple emails, then met me at an event I advertised - I was part of a sex fair that was open to the public. He seemed nice enough, and asked to meet me for coffee.
I said sure, so we met for coffee. At coffee, he asked me tons of questions and got this weird look in his eyes. He got excited from all the things I was sharing with him. He walked me to my car and asked if he could get in with me so he could ask me a question. A huge red flag went up, but I said sure, BECAUSE I'M A FUCKING IDIOT.
We sat in the car and he turned to me. "Can I kiss you?"
I sputtered no. I had NO interest in this guy. He was creepy.
He whined a bit, then took his leave. I'm very lucky nothing bad happened. I appreciate that he asked and respected my reaction. NEVER put yourself in a closed space with someone you're unsure of. Look, I even wrote a blog post about this very lesson.
Later, he showed up for one of my TBK get togethers. He circled the party, stared, and kept to himself. His behavior made me uncomfortable.
Since then, he has emailed me two or three times asking when I'm going to have another get together.
I'll tell you when: NEVER. Or if I do, it will be invite only.
It wasn't just him that ruined the party for me - there were two other creepy guys there putting a damper on things.
OK, so what made this guy creepy?
1. He had awkward social skills. He wasn't warm or personable. He came off as kindof cold. He had a bad vibe.
2. HE BROUGHT NOTHING TO THE TABLE. As I sat there and regaled him with interesting stories and advice, I realized I was providing all the entertainment, and that I was basically wasting my time. When I interact with someone, I want there to be give and take.
3. He was predatory. He watched me like a chickenhawk, circled the party like a wolf. It's important to be assertive and go after what you want, but don't treat the person like a walking steak.
Other things that make a man creepy:
- Being manipulative. Trying to guilt a woman into doing something, trying to wheedle something out of her.
- Being selfish. A creepy man's goal is to score, and if he keeps macking on a woman even though she's not giving him signals that she's into it, that's fucked up.
Here are my big suggestions on how to not be creepy:
- Bring something to the table. Be good looking, smart, charming, sexy, thoughtful, attentive, and if you are lacking enough of those characteristics, then at least be rich.
- Make a woman WANT you. Leave her wanting more. So many men's main goal is to get their dick in a hole. It's so refreshing when a man plays the game differently - I'm always shocked when a man doesn't try to fuck me right away. It's happened a couple times. Being patient and in control is very sexy. Eager and pushy is not.
- Be respectful. I've seen Beast say to a girlfriend of ours at a bar: "So you want to take my load, huh?" If some other guy were to use a line like that, it would be nasty and inappropriate. But Beast has already paved the way for it to be hot and welcoming, because he has established that the woman is totally into him through conversations, building rapport, and being attentive to what turns her on. This is why he should give lessons on confidence and how to please women and be successful in the dating game. SO MANY MEN DON'T HAVE A CLUE.
I hope this post provides a few clues on how to interact with others. So often a guy is creepy and then we avoid them, which isn't constructive. We need to let them know what time it is.
I didn't even get to the question, "Do you know any creepy women?" Do you?
Sunday, January 10, 2010
How Do I Conceive?
How Do I Conceive?
Wednesday, January 13, 2010
YATBK: Wraith
YATBK: Wraith
Comments
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Brian (Buzzie)
I would believe ..some... creepy people can be cured. Social skills can be learned. However, most just try and jump right in with no rhyme or reason when they feel a few positive vibes and think its "in the bag". By the way, that walking steak comment was fuking hilarious.
Historygirl
TBK
Oh the joys of being a walking steak...
-your comment about respectful-
It doesn't say much for some of the men I met/knew, but one of the things that drew me to my man was when we met I didn't catch him checking me out/ogling and he didn't mention my breasts at all despite the setting we met in. Which by the time we'd met seemed to be standard procedure. Like if a guy admired them I was supposed to offer. He just refused to do that and it made a huge difference in the way I viewed him.
Creepy is more than socially awkward by a long shot. Creepy has expectations and a lack of understanding.
isabella
HG, how very true--my favorite man never gave me any indication whatsoever that he found me physically attractive when we first met. It was forever before he admitted it, something I've found super sexy. Men who fall all over you with the obvious are just boring, when they're not being creepy. Treat me like I have something else to offer, other than my body, and I might just share it with you....
The Beautiful Kind
I've been told that large breasted women find it refreshing when a man doesn't immediately lunge for their tits. Wow it's tricky being a man! So many nuances to learn.
Mildred
Definitly TBK!
isabella
I'm not implying I have anything that resemble large breasts, hehe!
T
It's how I separate the men from the boys.
Kaia
I really loved your response of the definition of a creepy guy. A lot of creepy guys whine that 'Ohhh I'm creepy because she doesn't like me but if some hot guy did the same thing it would be totally okay. Women are shallow blah blah blah'.
Can creeps be cured? That I'm not sure of. None of the ones I've encountered were. I have a channel on youtube and it really brings the creepers out to play. I think if a creep were to be cured, it would have to involve some sort of special attention, therapy, or tutoring in social skills.
The Beautiful Kind
It's funny how creepy men complain about women being cold bitches, when really the man has no idea how to seduce a woman. His behavior repels her. Groping a tit will not turn a woman on. Going 0 to 60 will not turn on a woman on. Slow and steady wins the race, fellas.
standing up for creeps
There is a simple explanation for all of the behaviors you describe: shyness! Well, shyness mixed with horniness and inexperience.
I probably fit the "creepy" category here and there because, gasp, I try to be respectful to people I don't know very well!
I'm a little cold around strangers...because they're strangers!! And that's not gonna change even if I want to fuck them.
Note also the mixed cultural signals that guys get in this department. On the one hand, you're creepy if you hit on women. On the other hand, you're a loser if you're too "nice" to make a move. The struggle between these two things, which can often come off as awkwardness or nervousness, probably has a lot to do with that "creepy" impression.
Don't get me wrong...there are definitely creeps out there who want to chain women to their water heater. But the vast majority of these guys simply want to get laid but are nervous about getting rejected or seeming like an asshole.
Forgive me for sounding bitter...I haven't been laid in a long time, and the women I fall in love with almost unerringly put me in the friend category.
Swedishskier
Yup, you sound a little creepy. It sounds like you're expecting women to change for you even though you recognize that you're the one with the awkward social skills. Maybe you should try masturbating before these encounters and then since you're shy, try for the aloof thing instead of lashing out. Your post sounds like you think women should understand and just stand there handing out pity poon. It doesn't work that way and it shouldn't. That's hardly standing up for anyone.
Saynine
I just want to state for the record that chaining women to my water heater does not make me creepy, Ha Ha.
isabella
Creepy and shy are two very different things. Being shy can mean you lack confidence which comes off in a different manner, maybe not attractive but not necessarily creepy. Creepy is self centered and assuming that we want the same things even when you don't know me....
Amicron
"On the one hand, you're creepy if you hit on women. On the other hand, you're a loser if you're too "nice" to make a move."
So true. The above is just a person's way of rationalizing that they weren't physically attracted to you to begin with, it really doesn't matter what you would have done. That's a human trait, to the point that we deceive ourselves.
standing up for creeps
Yeah, more and more, I think the idea that there's something you can "do" to make somebody like you is a cultural myth, made popular by a lot of hollywood messages where guys "pursue" women and end up winning them over. I'm pretty sure, after a lot of efforts in that regard, that it's a myth. Either they like you, in which case they'll let you know pretty quickly, or they don't, in which case no amount of wooing is gonna make a difference.
marj
I don't agree, wooing can go a long way. No matter how awesome your personality is, how compatible you might be, if you leave a bad impression or just come off as not appealing you're never going to get the girl. Shit, wooing isn't that hard. Tell interesting stories, smile, don't put too much out there, be a bit physically aloof. Maybe two weeks down the line you can turn on a bit of cliched romance. Bam, you have learnt wooing for beginners, sure that isn't terrible nuanced but those are the basics.
slorgasm
I have to disagree with you. When a guy doesn't get my signals and constantly showers me with compliments, gifts, etc., it really creeps me out. I guess the term "woo" has a loose definition. What you call "wooing" is definitely not what I call "wooing". Wooing to me is romance. Surprising me with an impromptu picnic, taking me somewhere nice, like the beach on a full moon... I know it sounds cheesy but if you're dating a guy and he does those things, I love it. What you're describing is just the character traits of a possibly attractive guy.
I guess I say this because recently I've been dealing with a total creeper who shows up at my house randomly, calls me all the time, shows up at my work... He's given me rides home before I found out what a creep he was and instead of taking me home, he decided to drive me around, didn't even ask. And when he did ask, and I declined? He kept asking over and over. Get the F@$%ING picture!!!!!!!!!!
I guess to me, assuming you can just do things is really creepy. And shyness and inexperience vs. creepiness? Very different things. This guy has tons of sexual experience and has had multiple girlfriends in his life. He's just a creep. I don't usually see an inexperienced guy as creepy, just awkward. And shy? Well, kinda cute, in a puppy dog way. I agree with the other people who say pushiness is creepy. It's very, very creepy, makes me think you might rape me. And a guy who might rape you is usually VERY creepy.
The Beautiful Kind
Ugh, he sounds beyond creepy to me - he's in stalker territory! Creepy is one thing, criminal is another!
marj
I was watching sex and the city for the first time in about 5 years the other day and I started thinking that the character Samantha would be one of the creepiest women ever. Just seedy as fuck and would constantly make people feel uncomfortable.
I have encountered creepy women on the lesbian scene a few years ago. They're really pushy and generally I'd say, creepier than the creepiest men. When I was 18 and at a lesbo bar I was talking with a group of friends that I was interested in finding a woman or something along those lines, an older [maybe early 30's ish] European woman came up to me. She was attractive enough and started talking to me really intensely and staring into my eyes the whole time. She started saying things like, "I just love your body, I love your face, your whole look, your mouth." I suppose this would have been hot if I was interested but the attention was just really shallow because she was giving it to me within 5 minutes of meeting. I was edging away from her and she just didn't get the message. She asked me about 4 times if she could kiss me and I said no and she whined a bit. Eventually she went away, throughout the night she kept coming up to me from behind and holding me, a few hugs from the front and I could tell she was just trying to feel my tits against her. I was too fucking young and shy to just tell her to fuck off. I think on the dyke scene the rules of engagement are a little confused so it can lead to a bit of creepy behaviour.
The Beautiful Kind
I am very much like Samantha in Sex and the City. I say things that would be disgusting if a man said them. I always maintain I would be creepy except I have a pussy. But maybe I AM creepy and have a pussy. In that case, I should just sit around and play with it all day. Oh wait, I already do that. DOH!
This post has helped me realize that I am creepy!
Saynine
Oddly enough this behavior is not only confined to men. I am sure it is more common in men but I have experienced it with women as well.
swedishskier
DO tell! What were the women like? What made it creepy? What did you do?
Saynine
I think many of the same things that make for creepy men make for creepy women. Continued unwanted attention being the number one. It is not really that hard to differentiate between someone being friendly and being receptive to advances. I have no problem with a woman being socially aggressive but if I am interested you are going to know pretty quickly. Me not being directly rude to you is not the same as encouraging you. I think that may be the most key point in determining a "Creep factor" in anyone. The ability or effort to determine the difference.
Swedishskier
I would have a really tough time defining creepy. TBK, your definition's great. I have to say that while a lot of times its probably explained by all the things you mentioned, there's something to be said for trusting that instinct. Most women who've been attacked say that they just got a bad vibe but didn't listen to it. Listen to it.
standing up for creeps
Swedishskier, I am trying really hard to resist responding to your snarky comment with snarky comments. Nowhere in that comment did I express what you said I expressed. I'll just leave it at that and suggest that you read the words I wrote and not what you think I wrote.
Let me rephrase my comment to be clear. Being bad at meeting people of the opposite sex is not a moral failing, and people should be nicer about it. That doesn't mean you should fuck somebody you're not attracted to; just don't treat them like they have some nefarious intent. As is the philosophy of this website, people want to get laid, and that's normal. Some people are good at that. We should be happy for them. Some people are bad at that. We should feel compassion toward them.
If I was calling for a change, it wasn't from individual women. It was from a culture that gives contradictory messages about how a single guy should interact with women.
T
Some creepy men are seriously dangerous to us women, I really don't feel any compassion for them. And it's not always easy to tell who's dangerous and who's just awkward.
As for the more innocuous types that just don't know how to look at a girl's boobs and not be obvious about it, I feel really objectified and uncomfortable around them- they don't get any pity from me either.
And wanting the entire culture to change is asking the entire female population to change. We just like some subtlety. I vote for keeping contradictory messages.
standing up for creeps
Yeah, I can see your point there. I just know that I'm not dangerous, so it really bothers me that my shyness would be treated as an indication that I'm a latent rapist.
Shannon
"I vote for keeping contradictory messages."
Unfortunately this is why a lot of frustrated (and decent) men bomb after following female advice.
Jedyte
Exactly.
I prefer my interactions to be straightforward, honest and respectful. In fact, when I find a women acts in an "intentionally contradictory" way, I can lose my interest.
Swedishskier
Well put, T.
Swedishskier
Fair enough. I just don't think women are so easily confused. It may happen that we misinterpret shy for creepy but I don't think that's typically the case. I may be biased though as I've spent my entire life dating shy and/or introverted men. I think you can be shy and still confident which does not come across as creepy. I also think T said what I thought better than I did. Your comment came across as though you were bitter about being turned down and wanted the culture of women to coalesce to your ways. As I said T said it well. It seems to me most women second guess themselves a lot when it comes to their reactions to situations in an effort to be fair. Plus, we really do have to watch out for predators. I think its important to allow for women to respond to their creepiness instinct. YOu know, better safe that sorry. Sad if that means we miss out on a shy guy. Cuz I like those. Wimpy, whiny, self-pitying, or creepy I could do without.
Star
I dated a guy for just under two months, and he was definitely creepy. It was more the obsessive behavior and unending clinginess that creeped me out. For instance, I'd drop him off at work and by the time I drove the 10 minutes back to my apartment I'd have a voicemail and at least two text messages from him. These weren't the short "I miss you and can't wait to see you" messages, but ones that often had to be split into two messages because of length. Or, he'd send me a pic of his cock....which he took in the driver's seat of the cab he drove. That creeped me out more than anything.
A week into the relationship he told me he loved me. A month into it he told me he wanted to marry me. A month after that, I left him. He threatened to call the cops on me when I didn't give him his stuff back after a couple of days (it was finals week and I was also working). He called me a liar, a slut, and all sorts of nasty words.
To me, anyone whose presence makes me uncomfortable is creepy.
isabella
He wasn't just a creep, he was a stalker. Anyone who thinks he loves you that early in a relationship needs a restraining order.
The Beautiful Kind
YUCK!!!! I felt suffocated just reading this comment, Star! I wonder what would happen if you did the same thing to a person like that. What if he called and texted you like crazy and you just turned around and did it right back to him?
Beast
Creepy and shy are definitely unrelated as far as I see it.
One of the main differences is shy guys take heed in signals; creepy men disregard the signal and push forward.
Mira
Exactly. Shy people see the negative response (or even the neutral response) and run like hell. Creepy people just keep going or even amp things up.
Sabrina Morgan
YES. Creepy men either genuinely don't register disinterest (or a lack of positive interest) or choose to disregard it believing they can overcome it through pity, persistence, or pressure. Shy guys and guys who are awkward without being creepy are generally overly concerned with reading the reactions of others and will go out of their way to avoid a disinterested person.
I've found that many creepy guys have some level of social retardation (in the literal sense). In cases where their creepiness is not willful or intentional, I find the best approach is coldness or bluntness. Where bluntness fails, rudeness takes over. Oddly the harmless creeps tend to accept this well, probably because it's a completely unambiguous social response that doesn't rely on reading body language.
It's possible for creepy people of all genders to become less creepy, but it's a time-consuming process. Sometimes I wish that social rules were laid out as clearly as old-school netiquette, for all our sakes.
standing up for creeps
This is where the cultural confusion I mentioned earlier comes in. We're taught, by countless romantic comedies and fairy tales and whatnot, that we're supposed to win over women. We're not taught to politely express our interest and then politely accept a rejection. We're taught to stand out in the yard holding a boom box playing Peter Gabriel! It takes a while to figure out that real life does not much resemble Say Anything.
the velvet lilly
Beast is right....I HATE the asshat that chases my face for a kiss...or anyone elses for that matter....it's So creepy and wrong!!!
Gods do i have stories!!! I'm fired up here... have to collect myself and share a bit.....god i hate hate hate hate covertly hostile creepy men.
The Beautiful Kind
god me too. I had to take a stab and pick a creepy guy to profile in my post, I had about 20 to choose from. I've dated a couple creepy guys who clearly hate women, they are threatened and take it out on you by being hostile.
One guy I went on an accidental date with was divorced and had an adopted daughter. The first time we hung out together he assured me that they adopted due to infertility issues on his WIFE'S end, NOT HIS, she was the one who was damaged, HE had an extremely high sperm count.
What a thing to brag about on a first date.
girly
My current boyfriend came off as a huge creep when I first met him. He was a friend of a friend and I met him so he could buy booze for me. But then he was IMing me a lot and pushing for stuff I just didn't like him enough to be into. He's the nerdy type, but certainly not unattractive.
But I'm dating him now, right? I watch him interact with other people, and he does come off as really creepy when he talks to girls.
So in some cases, it is just shyness. He's respectful, charming, and witty once you get to know him, but for some reason he loses all social grace when talking to a new girl. His posture changes, his tone changes, etc. He looks really guarded. When you talk to him, all that makes something feel.. off.
I'm trying to teach him to be aware of that stuff (he didn't know that his shyness had a perceivable effect in the other person). Chicks are trained our whole lives to be hypersensitive to strange men. We rarely if ever talk about creepy chicks we've met not because they don't exist, but because they almost never register as an actual threat to our safety.
So I think *most* creeps can be cured if they have someone around who can point out what they're doing wrong, like if they're becoming guarded, being too friendly, not noticing "back off" signals, etc. It takes a lot of work and self-awareness and practice to change that kind of thing, but it can be done. Treat it like a bad habit, not a disease.
Obviously, some men really are dangerous, but they don't always register as creeps. Charming, attractive, witty men can be some of the most dangerous.
Lance
Good topic, I happen to specialize in destroying creepiness in guys. I'll give the short response...most of the stuff on my blog also addresses increasing social skills if anyone is interested.
Guys get creepy because, as one commenter said above, they have no social skill. I call it "game," as in having no game. When they have no game and are introverted and have never experienced success with women, they turn into weirdos. Kinda of like Golem in Lord of the Rings.
One solution is to learn game and follow the path that many many social artists (ie pickup artist) has followed. That is, read the material, practice in-field, go to camps and get your body language and voice and clothes etc etc straightened out, go to the gym, and work on your REGULAR LIFE so that you're an interesting and well rounded individual. After all that, creepy guys chill the fuck out and the women will follow.
the velvet lilly
okay... let me clarify something...
a man... " teaching men how to ...get game"... is the ultimate in creepy as well.
It's also predatory, callous, tacky, lame and displays zero regard for an actual female.
Stupid vapid women may for for that kind of fake cheesy behavior....a "pick up artist" is nothing more than an asshole with too much cologne and wayyy to much ego.
"practice in field"??? what, is it hunting season on pussy? Pick up artist camps.....UGH. This theme talk is so wrong.
I feel very sorry for any man weak willed enough and with such low self esteem as to think this is any kind of a good idea.
women... ladies....with class... respect a man with confidence...honesty, poise, and INTEREST in them, not the score..please read the Sensual Dom's treatise on this.
Thank you Beast....you said it more succinctly than I.
just.... sigh.
isabella
amen, velvet lilly
Beast
Lance- That sounds like a pretty shallow and not very well thought out solution....as in stupid.
Miss Scarlet
@velvet lilly and Beast-I think you're being a little harsh here. Lance's terminology may have missed the mark, but he is offering ideas for socially awkward men to be less awkward: learn how to interact with people, focus on improving yourself, become more interesting, have something to offer.
I feel our that virtual society is killing our ability to interact face to face easily. You can't pick up on subtle non-verble signals over the internet, the only way to do it is to get out there and meet people, talk to them. Hence Lance's comment about practicing in the field. As they say, practice makes perfect.
Beast
Miss Scarlet- I agree entirely that personal skills (face to face interaction) have been severely compromised by the ever growing virtual environment.
Tin Plated Hero
I wanted to take a stab at the what does a "creepy woman look like." I've got some experience in this. In fact, a number of years ago, a friend of mine had worked out a hand sign to give me warning to watch out for the approach of the creepy woman.
Basically, it all comes from the same place as the creepy guy. It's a lack of social skills. The creepy woman seems to think that she's got the go ahead to just start touching long before she should, or when there's not interest in that from the other person.
Social rules say that you start with a certain amount of physical and relational distance, which is based on how well you know the person and in what context the interaction is occurring in.
You don't interact with a new contact in the same way that you interact with a close friend. When you do, you start pinging as creepy--no matter if you're a man or a woman.
We register those sorts of violations of social rules at a level that we don't necessarily recognize immediately. That is, they don't occur at that point in your brain where you think about them. They happen where you all you register is emotion, and the emotion you register is something along the lines of, "ew." You can't put your finger on it, but it's definitely not something you like.
As to how the creepy can be non-creepy? Model the behavior of others. Take note of the reactions of the people you're interacting with, and then learn to change what you're doing if people around you react badly. Talk to the people you know and be willing to accept real criticism without becoming defensive. Think of it as an opportunity to improve yourself.
So... that's my take on the whole topic.
the velvet lilly
Here's why I stand by my statement:
Guys who don't get it can "practice in the field" all they want.... they can learn what clothes they think they need to wear, what to say...body language...
but it's all props.....they'll still never GET IT.. and it CERTAINLY won't teach them what they truly need to learn...
What it is to truly understand and interact with a woman.
They may get laid, sure, but if that's the be all end of of thier world....then they're still shallow and ignorant.
I want what I want because I want it..... not to share real intimacy (be it a lady, a three some, or more)
This is STILL the guy who can't take rejection like a gentleman...this is STILL the guy who thinks pushing forward wen there is NO connection and no degree of regard, is okay. (it's just numbers duuuuuude - ugh)
The guy with the cheesy pick up lines, chasing a face to kiss it, coping a feel with a brush of his hands OR his eyes ( I hate the psychological grope - it sucks)
thinking that he's "confident now"
I think it's the wrong way to ever learn about women. 9but they dont' want to learn about women - they just want to score)
I think it's learning to be a bigger douchebag 101.
but.. I'm not really sure how I feel.
the velvet lilly
This is WHY I hate the creepy guy and I think he can never be rehabilitated.
They are broken.
They don't know or don't CARE about correct interaction (and we can get into a whole nuther discussion about correct, I know)
They lie to get what they want.
or most often and most creepy....
They IMPINGE themselves or their sexuality into your space.
This is all kinds of sick and wrong.
(unless you're roleplaying this as a kink? do not want!)
a guy coming up to a shy insecure girl and slowly pulling bodice laces out until she stops him and says " why are you doing that?" ...."I just wanted to see when youd'stop me"
a guy chasing a girls face for a kiss she obviously does NOT want to give him
a guy gettign a hard on in the subway and staring down women - daring them to look or say something...
a guy walking around renaissance faires with no pants just to see people get a bit outraged and worry for thier daughters
a guy giving massage oil to his ex girlfriend as a wedding present...at the wedding...
a guy rubbing up on an underage girl he's never met in a partnering dance class
the producer cornering the model at the shoot to cop a feel
the stalker lurking around the house or the job.....
the guy hiding in stallions stalls to get them off or surprise owners at night
the director asking a girl to audition with a very sexually explicit scene with dirty language
the director who wants to " rehearse" by making out " to get in character" in front of the fireplace......while his pregnant wife is upstairs sleeping....
the guy who can't stop staring at your tits when he speaks to you... or worse...does it on purpose to insult you, get hard and panty to make you uncomfortable....and enjoy that it does.
I have seen, experienced or witnessed all these and more.....
none of these guys will BECOME a good guy..... ever.
but a few are now afraid of me.....:::smile::
(I'm also well aware I just gave TBK a slew of new fantasies to act out..grin....and smooch)