SlutWalk St. Louis Wiped Me Out!

Congratulations, condolences, and thanks.

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This post (and LunaMax’s) make me want to ask so many questions, but I don’t want to ask any inappropriate ones, which can be a very fine line when it comes to rape victims.

First, off topic, where is Part II of Dawn’s Story?!?

Back on topic…I dunno. I hear lots of stories of what you describe, two people completely NOT on the same page. From what LunaMax described, the two people WERE on the same page: she was being sodomized brutally against her will, screaming and probably yelling “NO” more than she should ever have to, and he was clearly raping her.

But I do hear stories about guys who would swear on a stack of bibles the next day that everything was fine, while the girl is busy sobbing with her friends/family that she was raped.

Kendra, this might have to be another post by you – what do you think happens? Do the girls say everything BUT ‘no?’ Do they say anything?

I have one friend here who says she ‘woke up’ and the guy was having sex with her. When she freaked, he stopped. The guy says they were having consensual sex and she just started freaking, so he stopped. Most likely she (an alcoholic) blacked out while having consensual sex, then snapped out of it, swearing she had been asleep. Either way, he stopped at the first sign of ‘no.’

Rape? I don’t think so. She still does, and is quite traumatized over it.

Another friend is naked, on her stomach under her boyfriend. She has had pretty much nothing but anal with this guy during their sex lives. This time he’s doing his usual dry rub, she says ‘nooooooo….’ but humps back to him. Few minutes later, he penetrates. She says “I said NO!” and he immediately removes. Without saying another word to him, she spends the night, leaves the next day, and he says he can’t reach her for a few days. Well, she’s telling friends and family she was raped.

Was she?? (I’m on the fence on this one, having heard both sides…she did say ‘no’ at first, but kept humping, but maybe for her ‘humping’ was the only thing on the table that night). Still, he stopped right away.

As a guy, I am curious. What say you, Kendra?

Or others?

PS–VERY proud of you for facing the number one fear in society, public speaking! Especially on such a difficult topic. Kudos to Wraith for being there for you.

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Fantastic and moving! I am so glad to see this movement moving toward something better then what we have. Opening minds and hearts, remembering that we are all human after all, here to share and grow in individual and collective consciousness. Yeah sluts!!:heart:

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Thank you for being a part of slutwalk and your sharing afterwards.

Being willing to talk and share something really shows your placing others ahead of yourself. A offer a sincere thank you and a hug of support.

I have no understanding of how why or what leads on to notion of rape. But even more so those that say imply or anything else that it is anyone else fault. Least of all a police agency like Toronto PD. They still enrage me and embrass me to be a part of public service agency.

Again thanks and shedding a few tears over the pain of it.

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…and here’s where I get jumped on hard (and not in the good way).

I read the stories posted at the site. First off, I would never imagine ‘slutwalk’ based on it’s name would be about or concerning rape victims, but I’m thrilled it is and there’s a supportive place for victims.

Okay, that part wasn’t the contoversy.

This is: As I read the stories, I was struck by how many women had been raped, had been violated, and were horrified by how the men who had abused them seemed to have no clue or didn’t care.

The women noted that people told them ‘it’s not rape unless you fight’ (ludicrous), ‘it’s not rape unless you scream’ (who on earth told you such nonsense?), and you shouldn’t report it if you led him on (say WHAA?).

But in those cases, I noted this: none of these women said “No.” Okay, in one case, one woman would say something like “that’s not on the table tonight” but hours later would give in. To a guy, that’s successful manipulation. Whether via courting or convincing, you wen’t from a ‘not tonight’ hours ago to a ‘let’s do it’ hours later. And yet you felt violated.

Another was completely silent as guys ran a train on her mouth. Never once saying ‘no.’ Or ‘stop.’ Just feeling horrified and violated.

Another said “but I cried…” But you didn’t say ‘no,’ or ‘stop.’ I’ve known lots of women I’ve been with who have cried – usually from the stress release of orgasm, or sometimes because it was overwhelming (they just got out of a relationship and it was ‘too soon,’ in which case of course I stopped). But if you didn’t tell him why the tears, how is he supposed to know he’s raping you??

Listen, I cannot STAND women being abused. Or forced against their will. Or feeling violated. Or feeling uncomfortable. I have been (many men have) in situations where I’ve been that asshole who made the woman feel uncomfortable but didn’t know it until she said ‘no.’ or ‘stop.’ or ‘Stephen! We have to have boundaries!’ BOOM! stopped! Of course. Every man should.

A couple women who posted felt violated and victimized many times in their lives.

Where’s the help for these women?? Where’s the education?? They aren’t that old, or raised in the goddamn ’50′s where women were absolutely put down.

They never learned that ‘no’ means ‘no,’ but ‘no’ must be spoken out loud. They never learned to protect themselves. They never learned to care for themselves. For that to happen is just as horrible as any rape situation, and I hope each and every woman who has felt this way can find help.

I know women like Dawn and Kendra, who were abused as children, are often constantly found in situations where they are victimized and abused as adults by predators.

Unfortunately, in a dude’s mind, ‘no’ still has to happen somewhere. ‘Stop’ has to be spoken out loud. In a perfect world we all wait to know each other before sex happens, but nothing’s perfect.

I am sending a couple dollars to RAINN. I’m sure I’ve violated women’s trust before, even with the best of intentions. I’m positive I’ve made women feel uncomfortable, in part due to my mental health problems, and in part because I had no clue they were hurting. So I definitely owe the money.

But I sure would like to hear more on this topic from Kendra and the other women on this site. A lot more.

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Since we’re taking about “Who, Me?” rape I thought I’d share my story as a woman who was assaulted by a man who to this day doesn’t think he did anything wrong.

 I was sexually assaulted when I was 16, although some people would disagree. First, because I had had sex with him before the incident, second because I didn’t scream or fight him off, third because I was drunk and therefor “not credible”, and fifth because I kept in contact with him afterwards. But here’s what happened.

I was 16 (below the age of consent in the state I lived) and was engaged in a friends with benefits type deal with a guy I knew in high school, although he was 18 and had since dropped out. It was normal for me to go to his house, get drunk, have sex with him, and leave in the morning. None of the times before the incident were non consensual, but I was unhappy with our arrangement. One night I went to his house to hang out with him and his friends and told him (and myself) that I’m not going to have sex with him that night, that I just wanted to hang out. Well we all started drinking and I drank way more then I should have. His friends left and it was just him and I. 

I don’t remember a lot from that night, but I remember enough to know that what happened was wrong. He kept rubbing me and trying to take off my clothes, and I kept saying no. He wouldn’t stop. I was barely conscious; I was laying face down in his bed falling in and out of sleep while he tried to undress me. I couldn’t fight, I was too weak. I understand that he was drunk also, but how much clearer could I have been? I said no, more then once, but he kept going. He took my pants off and rolled me over and had sex with me.

The next morning I knew what happened was wrong, but I blamed myself. I didn’t think rape happened that way, I thought rape was a stranger attacking from the bushes. It left a very uneasy feeling, but without the guiding hand of feminism and education I was lost. So I blocked that night out of my memory and tried to move on with my life. I saw him a few more times after that, and talked to him on the phone. A few months later we lost contact.

It wasn’t until a few months ago, after learning more about rape and consent, that I realized what happened when I was 16 was sexual assault. I know that he doesn’t see it that way; the asshole tried to add me on Facebook. I don’t know what his life is like, or if he’s still taking advantage of underage girls. He’s a rapist, and doesn’t even know it.

He gets to live his life as a normal person and I have to live mine with the knowledge that I was a victim. It doesn’t define me, but it is a part of my being.

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It should be clear by now that the topic of rape is not a simple binary one. It should also be clear that there are two parts to it: (1) communication of consent or lack thereof and (2) actually stopping when non-consent is communicated.

Both are equally critical. And consent should not ever be taken as the default condition. At the same time, it should be clear to all that the communication of consent/non-consent is easily botched both on the sending and receiving ends, which is one reason why there are instances of one party feeling raped and the other party being clueless.

I’d like to suggest to the women among us that it might, just maybe, be good policy to not assume that whatever method you think you’ve used to express non-consent has been received. I’d like to point out that there are persons, for example, with Asperger’s syndrome whose brains simply cannot process faces or body language to determine anything about those they are with. As with other facets of human development, there are degrees of this, even among those NOT diagnosed with Asperger’s.

What I am trying to say here is that perhaps one should try to communicate several different ways that “this is not acceptable,” rather than just one way.

I am with Stephan here in saying that stopping is required when the “no” message is received, but that that message has to be received. Where it all turns messy is when the message isn’t received, regardless of the reason for that.

I don’t ever want to be the cause of anyone’s feeling violated. I try to make sure I’ve heard a positive affirmation of desire before anything else. But cooperation in the form of clear communication is essential for the mental health of both parties.

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I am very sympathetic to all of those here and elsewhere who say they have been raped or sexually violated in any way. And I pray for healing or whatever kind of resolution they need.

But, I do have one story from the point of view of one who is “more interested in intercourse” than their partner. I believe this story could apply in MF, FM, FF, or MM situations– so I’ll use “1″ and “2″ to designate the individuals. To me, it’s kind of a gray area.

1 and 2 are in love and enjoy sex, though 1 would often enjoy more, while 2 is not quite so definitive about it. 1 and 2 had dinner, drank some or not, watched a movie at home, are up late, and are teasing each other sexually on the couch (but haven’t gotten too intimate yet), when finally they decide to go to bed. 1 is thinking “finally we can make love”, while 2 is thinking “I’m so tired, I’m really ready for sleep.” They get in bed, kiss a little more, maybe quite intimately, and then 2 turns his/her back to 1 and says “goodnight”. They are in a spooning position, 1 has arms around 2 and is gently touching intimately, or maybe just gently stroking 2 somewhere, and if 1 is a male he probably is pressing his erect penis against 2. 1 is still horny and hoping to entice 2 into some sex. 2 enjoys it for a little bit, maybe moaning a little.. maybe moving in a seductive way, but then says “honey, it’s late, I’m tired, let’s just sleep”. 1 says “OK”, but kisses 2 on the neck and caresses a little tighter or more intimately, hoping to give it one more try.

This is where it gets kinda gray… in the past, sometimes 2 would decide that they want it too, and even though tired, they return the intimacy and the pair make love. But, sometimes 2 continues to say they are tired, though they may give another intimate kiss.. or they may stroke 1′s penis or vagina, but still say “darling let’s sleep, and see how we feel in the morning”. This “dance of seduction” may continue for 1 minute or even 10 minutes, until finally, 1 decides to accept sleep, or 2 decides to accept sex.

Was 1 wrong for trying so hard? Was 1 abusive? Did 1 force 2 to give in? Was 2 wrong for giving in sometimes? Was 2 wrong for giving mixed signals? Was it wrong for both to engage in that dance of seduction?

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